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	<title>Comments on: Greg Sandow and the relevance of classical music</title>
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	<link>http://blog.eighthblackbird.org/2010/04/23/greg-sandow-and-the-relevance-of-classical-music/</link>
	<description>Adventures (in new music) with eighth blackbird</description>
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		<title>By: Sharron Stover</title>
		<link>http://blog.eighthblackbird.org/2010/04/23/greg-sandow-and-the-relevance-of-classical-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2052</link>
		<dc:creator>Sharron Stover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Aug 2010 06:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.eighthblackbird.com/?p=1263#comment-2052</guid>
		<description>Chris, I hope you&#039;re paying attention to the enormous amount of blow back against Mr. Sandow and his ideas after his entirely unjustified attack against Heather Mac Donald. The outpouring of people finally willing to stand up and push back against this bully by saying that he is wearing no clothes is refreshing.

The comments in Ms. Mac Donald&#039;s articles sums up the surge of anti-Sandow Declinism can be found here: http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=6427 

Add to that some very insightful words from Drew McManus and a number of additional comments here: http://www.adaptistration.com/2010/08/13/an-ugly-war-of-words/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, I hope you&#8217;re paying attention to the enormous amount of blow back against Mr. Sandow and his ideas after his entirely unjustified attack against Heather Mac Donald. The outpouring of people finally willing to stand up and push back against this bully by saying that he is wearing no clothes is refreshing.</p>
<p>The comments in Ms. Mac Donald&#8217;s articles sums up the surge of anti-Sandow Declinism can be found here: <a href="http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=6427" rel="nofollow">http://www.city-journal.org/comments/index.php?story=6427</a> </p>
<p>Add to that some very insightful words from Drew McManus and a number of additional comments here: <a href="http://www.adaptistration.com/2010/08/13/an-ugly-war-of-words/" rel="nofollow">http://www.adaptistration.com/2010/08/13/an-ugly-war-of-words/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://blog.eighthblackbird.org/2010/04/23/greg-sandow-and-the-relevance-of-classical-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2051</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 06:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.eighthblackbird.com/?p=1263#comment-2051</guid>
		<description>Chris,

Thank you for the fantastic discussion and for your refreshing honesty. I am a big fan of 8bb and Steve Mackey but when I saw Slide last summer at Ojai last summer I was bored out of my mind. I don&#039;t expect you to agree but I don&#039;t think the problem is your marketing skills but that in this case there is a lack of something “meaningful, unique, interesting to say.” The 8bb recital at Stanford next spring is the first opportunity to see the group that I will pass up. 

I am looking forward to the next 8bb project whatever it is!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,</p>
<p>Thank you for the fantastic discussion and for your refreshing honesty. I am a big fan of 8bb and Steve Mackey but when I saw Slide last summer at Ojai last summer I was bored out of my mind. I don&#8217;t expect you to agree but I don&#8217;t think the problem is your marketing skills but that in this case there is a lack of something “meaningful, unique, interesting to say.” The 8bb recital at Stanford next spring is the first opportunity to see the group that I will pass up. </p>
<p>I am looking forward to the next 8bb project whatever it is!</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://blog.eighthblackbird.org/2010/04/23/greg-sandow-and-the-relevance-of-classical-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2031</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jun 2010 17:46:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.eighthblackbird.com/?p=1263#comment-2031</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve thought of an appropriate designation for a discussion like this: zombie topic.  Everyone says it&#039;s dead, but it&#039;s still up and running.  And trying to eat your brain.

Thanks all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve thought of an appropriate designation for a discussion like this: zombie topic.  Everyone says it&#8217;s dead, but it&#8217;s still up and running.  And trying to eat your brain.</p>
<p>Thanks all.</p>
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		<title>By: Will Mego</title>
		<link>http://blog.eighthblackbird.org/2010/04/23/greg-sandow-and-the-relevance-of-classical-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2014</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Mego</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 20:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.eighthblackbird.com/?p=1263#comment-2014</guid>
		<description>Perhaps all debate about the demise or wondrous rebirth of art music, definitions of same, self-recrimination of marketing efforts, plans to hold concerts in new or unusual places, efforts to dress up, dumb down, increase market share, or up one&#039;s status on the playlists of imaginary educated people who discuss theater but not art/classical/contemporary/other music...should be abandoned..because haven&#039;t these things been debated and attempted enough yet? (if no, then repeat from beginning until happy or sad)

Perhaps the issue is with the compositions themselves. Our original writer (who probably no longer ever wishes to write anything ever again, but I hope I&#039;m incorrect) wrote: &quot;There is a sense, I believe, that while enjoying new theater only requires you to be human and open, appreciating new music requires training, initiation into the secret meaning of all those farts and squeaks.&quot; 

Exactly...but not because of the sense of required initiation, but let&#039;s highlight the last three words: &quot;Farts and Squeaks&quot; (blog/band name, anybody?) 

Not every composer is great, though they should strive daily to be. Not every work they produce is a masterpiece, though they should yearn for it to be so. Maybe everybody should do the best they can, at composing, performing, marketing, etc...and just relax about the meta-issues of the State Of Art Music As We Know It, And Our Impending Doom Or Victory. 

&quot;Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps all debate about the demise or wondrous rebirth of art music, definitions of same, self-recrimination of marketing efforts, plans to hold concerts in new or unusual places, efforts to dress up, dumb down, increase market share, or up one&#8217;s status on the playlists of imaginary educated people who discuss theater but not art/classical/contemporary/other music&#8230;should be abandoned..because haven&#8217;t these things been debated and attempted enough yet? (if no, then repeat from beginning until happy or sad)</p>
<p>Perhaps the issue is with the compositions themselves. Our original writer (who probably no longer ever wishes to write anything ever again, but I hope I&#8217;m incorrect) wrote: &#8220;There is a sense, I believe, that while enjoying new theater only requires you to be human and open, appreciating new music requires training, initiation into the secret meaning of all those farts and squeaks.&#8221; </p>
<p>Exactly&#8230;but not because of the sense of required initiation, but let&#8217;s highlight the last three words: &#8220;Farts and Squeaks&#8221; (blog/band name, anybody?) </p>
<p>Not every composer is great, though they should strive daily to be. Not every work they produce is a masterpiece, though they should yearn for it to be so. Maybe everybody should do the best they can, at composing, performing, marketing, etc&#8230;and just relax about the meta-issues of the State Of Art Music As We Know It, And Our Impending Doom Or Victory. </p>
<p>&#8220;Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Who cares if you care? &#124; Dennis DeSantis</title>
		<link>http://blog.eighthblackbird.org/2010/04/23/greg-sandow-and-the-relevance-of-classical-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2011</link>
		<dc:creator>Who cares if you care? &#124; Dennis DeSantis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 May 2010 19:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.eighthblackbird.com/?p=1263#comment-2011</guid>
		<description>[...] Matt Marks and Brian Sacawa have been kicking out articles over the past few days in response to a fairly contentious piece on eighth blackbird&#8217;s blog. Topics under discussion [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Matt Marks and Brian Sacawa have been kicking out articles over the past few days in response to a fairly contentious piece on eighth blackbird&#8217;s blog. Topics under discussion [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Patner</title>
		<link>http://blog.eighthblackbird.org/2010/04/23/greg-sandow-and-the-relevance-of-classical-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2010</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Patner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 21:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.eighthblackbird.com/?p=1263#comment-2010</guid>
		<description>Chris -- That&#039;s pretty brave to say why you think &quot;Slide&quot; sold so poorly.  Refreshing to see such honesty and openness as yours -- and throughout this whole set of exchanges as well.  Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris &#8212; That&#8217;s pretty brave to say why you think &#8220;Slide&#8221; sold so poorly.  Refreshing to see such honesty and openness as yours &#8212; and throughout this whole set of exchanges as well.  Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://blog.eighthblackbird.org/2010/04/23/greg-sandow-and-the-relevance-of-classical-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2009</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 18:34:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.eighthblackbird.com/?p=1263#comment-2009</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to respond to the general notion of &#039;if you play it, they will come&#039;, and in particular to James Hirschfeld&#039;s comments: &quot;I think if you have something meaningful, unique, interesting to say, that you’ll have an audience . . Everyone is trying too hard to be popular and not hard enough on their art.&quot;

While I understand this perspective, particularly when it is an reaction to an overemphasis on marketing, I&#039;d caution against the very real possibility of slipping into a disregard for the audience or complacency regarding the extraordinarily competitive world of professional performing arts.

For example, none of the birds has commented on this blog.  It&#039;s not that they don&#039;t care, they are all reading and discussion the comments, it&#039;s simply that they don&#039;t have time.  I&#039;m on the road with them right now and seeing firsthand how much work they put in.  Between traveling, loading in setting up, rehearsing, tech, performance, meet &amp; greet, etc., a 12-16 hour day isn&#039;t unusual.

In a very real sense, they are doing what James and other suggest; they&#039;re just focusing on their art.  They play music they love.  What it&#039;s called, how relevant it is, their popularity, etc., is secondary. No doubt their relentless focus on mastering their craft has been essential to their success.

On the other hand, I am paid to think about these things.  So is our publicist, marketing consultant, graphic designer, booking agent, etc.  Our Board thinks about these things, and pays us for the privilege.  We all collectively think, talk and worry about these issues.  We have to if these six musicians we all adore can be let free to just focus on their music, and still pay their rent.

eighth blackbird performed Rinde Eckert and Steve Mackey&#039;s &lt;em&gt;Slide&lt;/em&gt; at the Harris Theater in Chicago recently.  We had a very small audience and lost money.  We didn&#039;t have a small audience because eighth blackbird didn&#039;t have something &quot;meaningful, unique, interesting to say&quot;;  we had a small audience because I didn&#039;t market the show well.

The more I focus on eighth blackbird&#039;s popularity, the more their audience grows, the more money they make, the more they can concentrate on creating great art.  This is not a new formula.

I don&#039;t think James is suggesting that artists work without any regard as to how their art reaches an audience.  I&#039;m confident he is rather cautioning against paying too much attention to it at the expense of the art itself.  I am just likewise cautioning artists against taking for granted the tremendous amount of work it takes to make an audience aware that the art is out there.  An independent artist needs to know who their audience is, what they want, who else their competing with for an audience&#039;s time and money, how to market, etc.  If such an artist is lucky and can grow, then they can eventually pay someone else to do all of that.

I just realized: arts administrators are really matchmakers.  Call me Yenta.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to respond to the general notion of &#8216;if you play it, they will come&#8217;, and in particular to James Hirschfeld&#8217;s comments: &#8220;I think if you have something meaningful, unique, interesting to say, that you’ll have an audience . . Everyone is trying too hard to be popular and not hard enough on their art.&#8221;</p>
<p>While I understand this perspective, particularly when it is an reaction to an overemphasis on marketing, I&#8217;d caution against the very real possibility of slipping into a disregard for the audience or complacency regarding the extraordinarily competitive world of professional performing arts.</p>
<p>For example, none of the birds has commented on this blog.  It&#8217;s not that they don&#8217;t care, they are all reading and discussion the comments, it&#8217;s simply that they don&#8217;t have time.  I&#8217;m on the road with them right now and seeing firsthand how much work they put in.  Between traveling, loading in setting up, rehearsing, tech, performance, meet &#038; greet, etc., a 12-16 hour day isn&#8217;t unusual.</p>
<p>In a very real sense, they are doing what James and other suggest; they&#8217;re just focusing on their art.  They play music they love.  What it&#8217;s called, how relevant it is, their popularity, etc., is secondary. No doubt their relentless focus on mastering their craft has been essential to their success.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I am paid to think about these things.  So is our publicist, marketing consultant, graphic designer, booking agent, etc.  Our Board thinks about these things, and pays us for the privilege.  We all collectively think, talk and worry about these issues.  We have to if these six musicians we all adore can be let free to just focus on their music, and still pay their rent.</p>
<p>eighth blackbird performed Rinde Eckert and Steve Mackey&#8217;s <em>Slide</em> at the Harris Theater in Chicago recently.  We had a very small audience and lost money.  We didn&#8217;t have a small audience because eighth blackbird didn&#8217;t have something &#8220;meaningful, unique, interesting to say&#8221;;  we had a small audience because I didn&#8217;t market the show well.</p>
<p>The more I focus on eighth blackbird&#8217;s popularity, the more their audience grows, the more money they make, the more they can concentrate on creating great art.  This is not a new formula.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think James is suggesting that artists work without any regard as to how their art reaches an audience.  I&#8217;m confident he is rather cautioning against paying too much attention to it at the expense of the art itself.  I am just likewise cautioning artists against taking for granted the tremendous amount of work it takes to make an audience aware that the art is out there.  An independent artist needs to know who their audience is, what they want, who else their competing with for an audience&#8217;s time and money, how to market, etc.  If such an artist is lucky and can grow, then they can eventually pay someone else to do all of that.</p>
<p>I just realized: arts administrators are really matchmakers.  Call me Yenta.</p>
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		<title>By: daniel</title>
		<link>http://blog.eighthblackbird.org/2010/04/23/greg-sandow-and-the-relevance-of-classical-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2008</link>
		<dc:creator>daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.eighthblackbird.com/?p=1263#comment-2008</guid>
		<description>Matt.36: No one is sticking their heads in the sand. What some of us are suggesting here is that, if this topic is of any importance at all, we&#039;d be better off paying attention to reliable sources, such as Taruskin or, for that matter, to what REAL, active musicians and composers have to say, thus ignoring the silly and egocentrical truisms and pontifications of a self-appointed guru. Has anyone listened to Sandow&#039;s &quot;music&quot; (he claims to be a professional composer)?  If he had anything to say musically, and possessed the chops to make it happen in a convincing way, he wouldn&#039;t be so worried about the relevance of classical music.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt.36: No one is sticking their heads in the sand. What some of us are suggesting here is that, if this topic is of any importance at all, we&#8217;d be better off paying attention to reliable sources, such as Taruskin or, for that matter, to what REAL, active musicians and composers have to say, thus ignoring the silly and egocentrical truisms and pontifications of a self-appointed guru. Has anyone listened to Sandow&#8217;s &#8220;music&#8221; (he claims to be a professional composer)?  If he had anything to say musically, and possessed the chops to make it happen in a convincing way, he wouldn&#8217;t be so worried about the relevance of classical music.</p>
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		<title>By: Pop-o-matic Trouble &#171; Matt Marks Music</title>
		<link>http://blog.eighthblackbird.org/2010/04/23/greg-sandow-and-the-relevance-of-classical-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2007</link>
		<dc:creator>Pop-o-matic Trouble &#171; Matt Marks Music</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 00:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.eighthblackbird.com/?p=1263#comment-2007</guid>
		<description>[...] a similar discussion on the eighth blackbird blog &#8211; which started off as a debate on Greg Sandow but found itself in another art vs pop debate [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a similar discussion on the eighth blackbird blog &#8211; which started off as a debate on Greg Sandow but found itself in another art vs pop debate [...]</p>
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		<title>By: &#8216;Alt-Classical&#8217;. So Hot Right Now. &#171; Sound Directions</title>
		<link>http://blog.eighthblackbird.org/2010/04/23/greg-sandow-and-the-relevance-of-classical-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2006</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8216;Alt-Classical&#8217;. So Hot Right Now. &#171; Sound Directions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 05:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.eighthblackbird.com/?p=1263#comment-2006</guid>
		<description>[...] Is it Anne Midgette&#8217;s fault? Is it Greg Sandow&#8217;s fault? Is it 8bb&#8217;s fault? Is it bad to talk about [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Is it Anne Midgette&#8217;s fault? Is it Greg Sandow&#8217;s fault? Is it 8bb&#8217;s fault? Is it bad to talk about [...]</p>
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